Ezra Klein Interview

Annie Galvin
…Simon has a really interesting question: “What does think of Jason Hickel’s argument that degrowth is humanity’s best hope for addressing climate change?” So maybe could you just quickly gloss what degrowth is, and then give your opinion on it?

Ezra Klein

Yeah. And maybe we should do an episode on this. I have very complicated feelings about degrowth. So one is that it is tricky to talk about, as you say, because I find its advocates will continue to say that you’re defining it wrong. So let me use a definition from Hickel, which is, and I’m quoting him here, “Degrowth is a planned reduction of energy and resource throughput designed to bring the economy back into balance with the living world in a way that reduces inequality and improves human well-being.”

And so I’d note two things here. One is “designed.” Degrowth is, as its advocates understand it, a act of global economic planning really without equal anywhere in human history. It is an act of extraordinary central planning. So that’s one thing that is going to become important in my answer.

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